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#1 capitanus

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 06:46 PM

What is wrong with Pakistan that it produces so many asylum seekers, and what are the West doing about it?

Surely as a recipient of UK overseas aid, we should be using that as leverage to get them to sort out whatever problem it is they have instead of having other countries pick up the pieces.

Discuss.
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#2 TRVMP

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 07:45 PM

Pakistan has a beleaguered Christian population which is periodically bombed. I can see a genuine case for asylum for many of these people. There are also some other religious minorities, such as Ahmadis, facing similar pressure.

But for the most part it seems that they want to flee an oppressive, backwards country for the US or Germany, which are very nice countries. Who wouldn't want to live in the developed West? Our countries are the best and most welcoming that have ever existed.

Incidentally the German police have released the Pakistani asylum seeker whom they arrested earlier. So the attacker is still at large.

Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#3 TRVMP

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 07:54 PM

Also related is that Muslim countries tend not to accept other Muslims as asylum seekers. Saudi Arabia has taken in exactly zero asylum seekers - even fellow Sunnis - from Syria, for example. Pakistanis are generally not given asylum in other Muslim countries in their region - most notably Malaysia shuts its door to fellow believers. In this sense I have some sympathy with those who default to the West as they have relatively few other options. Once again, then, we should bring our diplomatic pressure to bear on countries that aren't pulling their weight. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia to start with.


Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#4 capitanus

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 08:29 PM

Pakistan has a beleaguered Christian population which is periodically bombed. I can see a genuine case for asylum for many of these people. There are also some other religious minorities, such as Ahmadis, facing similar pressure.
But for the most part it seems that they want to flee an oppressive, backwards country for the US or Germany, which are very nice countries. Who wouldn't want to live in the developed West? Our countries are the best and most welcoming that have ever existed.
Incidentally the German police have released the Pakistani asylum seeker whom they arrested earlier. So the attacker is still at large.


They caught him in the Tiergarten. What was he doing there at that time of night? He's clearly a wrong'un. Hope they gave the **** a kicking nonetheless.
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#5 bigdoc1874

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 09:08 PM

Whats wrong is religion, whether it be muslim, christian or judaism. It does not belong in a modern society, we do science very well at this point in history and all these religions have already had their credibility debunked. Any adult who still believes in their fairy stories belongs in the sea as plankton fodder.



#6 capitanus

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 12:36 AM

Whats wrong is religion, whether it be muslim, christian or judaism. It does not belong in a modern society, we do science very well at this point in history and all these religions have already had their credibility debunked. Any adult who still believes in their fairy stories belongs in the sea as plankton fodder.

 

Aye, and you are the same kind of dullard who probably spends a fortune on Christmas pressies, and will be eating Spaghetti Hoops for months afterwards to pay for it all.  :lol:


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#7 TRVMP

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 12:41 AM

Christmas is ****in' rad, I love it, best time of year.


Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#8 TRVMP

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 02:49 AM

Whats wrong is religion, whether it be muslim, christian or judaism. It does not belong in a modern society, we do science very well at this point in history and all these religions have already had their credibility debunked. Any adult who still believes in their fairy stories belongs in the sea as plankton fodder.


As you probably know I'm a militant atheist but this is far too simplistic. For one thing, you can't equate Buddhist terror and Christian terror with Muslim terror - the latter is an order of magnitude more serious in most places on earth, especially the cases we care about. Second, not all terror is religious. There was plenty of leftist terror in Europe post-WW2 and also some pro-Nato terror in the other direction, neither of which can be meaningfully called religious. Same with many narco groups in Mexico and to a lesser extent South America.

Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#9 HEISENBURG

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:09 AM

religions are just cliques

 

Some are nastier than others



#10 TonInDublin

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:15 AM

Whats wrong is religion, whether it be muslim, christian or judaism. It does not belong in a modern society, we do science very well at this point in history and all these religions have already had their credibility debunked. Any adult who still believes in their fairy stories belongs in the sea as plankton fodder.


^^^^^^^^^^^
Idiot found
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#11 Dunoon_Ton

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 09:35 AM

I actually agree with him to a point, in my opinion all religion is absolute gubbins & clearly nonsense.  People believe it in for many different reasons of course, mums and dads made you go as children, some turn to it in their darkest hour for some kind of hope/relief when they are desperate, others genuinely believe in it & some probably feel it gives them structure or purpose in life.  If people want to believe & practice & it doesn't bother anyone else no problem, but you have to accept others beliefs as well, as they are just as much nonsense as yours.  Some people like reading fiction books, others prefer non-fiction, each to their own & all that, just keep it to yourself thanks. 

 

I just cannot stand people in the middle of the street spouting off about their religion or handing out flyers to try and get you to come listen to their particular brand of adult fairy stories.


"He's not the messiah........He's a very naughty boy!.............Now P*ss Off!"

#12 Cet Homme Charmant

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 10:15 AM

No issues whatsoever with religion of any kind, as long as those who follow it don't impinge on the rights and freedoms of others by attempting to impose their personal beliefs on society as a whole. Especially so where these beliefs directly contradict scientific consensus.


Edited by Cet Homme Charmant, 21 December 2016 - 11:24 AM.


#13 Alibi

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 11:12 AM

Whats wrong is religion, whether it be muslim, christian or judaism. It does not belong in a modern society, we do science very well at this point in history and all these religions have already had their credibility debunked. Any adult who still believes in their fairy stories belongs in the sea as plankton fodder.

 

I agree with you, although the real problem is the fundamentalist (maybe the funda bit is superfluous...) believers who feel compelled to attack anyone who does not share their beliefs, or is not one of the small subsect that is their own People's Front of Judea.  Most religionists nowadays are a bit more tolerant than was the fashion in the middle ages.  Doesn't alter the fact that the whole shebang is man-made nonsense born of superstition and ignorance.  Doesn't mean I wish any harm to religionists; just wish they would all come to their senses and adopt a policy of being nice to other people, but that's unlikely to happen.


"Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it."

#14 TRVMP

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 03:06 PM

There also needs to be a discussion about the ethnic and social nature of "Islamic" terror - I put Islamic in scare-quotes not in some misguided attempt to say that jihadi terrorists aren't "real Muslims" (that's a very presumptuous thing to say and is always, 100% of the time, an attempt at obfuscation) but rather that we can draw distinctions between different types of Islam and different social contexts when we analyse terror, particularly terror in the West. (Remember that the world's most prolific terror group is the Wahabbi organization Boko Haram, which barely if at all operates outside of West Africa.)

 

Long story short, the countries and social groups that account for more of the world's Muslims than others - that is, Indonesia and India - are relatively blameless in western terror. We associate Islam and Islamic terror in our minds primarily with Arabs and there's a good reason for that - the social conditions in the Arab world lend themselves uniquely to anti-western terror. There are a number of reasons for that - for me these are the most pressing three:

 

1) Wahhabism is allowed to spread virulently through the Muslim world because nobody will stand up to the Saudis, because they have money and oil and political connections. Wahhabism is an inherently terroristic ideology. From 9/11 to the present day, the main (not only) driving force of anti-Western terror is really Wahhabism.

2) In rural and slum Arabia in particular, incest is rampant, and so is polygamy, meaning that there are genetic bottlenecks lending themselves to erratic behavior, and often frustration caused by a lack of women for a huge and burgeoning population of idle young men.

3) A culture of self-inflicted accommodation to Islam in the West means we don't protect ourselves against clear and obvious threats that would be clearly identified in their own social contexts. A good example is Lebanon, where despite massive sectarian tensions, terror is rather rare, because they know the warning signs and (more importantly) are willing to act against them.

 

Basically if you stop Wahhabism in the West you stop a lot of trouble, but we won't because we're addicted to Saudi money. Similarly if you stop importing by the millions people who don't especially like you, you'll have less terror.


Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#15 TRVMP

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 03:10 PM

(That said, Wahhibism has barely a toehold in Pakistan.)


Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#16 Alibi

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 04:24 PM

It's quite popular in Japanese cuisine though...


"Any nation given the opportunity to regain its national sovereignty and which then rejects it is so far beneath contempt that it is hard to put words to it."

#17 capitanus

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:20 PM

There also needs to be a discussion about the ethnic and social nature of "Islamic" terror - I put Islamic in scare-quotes not in some misguided attempt to say that jihadi terrorists aren't "real Muslims" (that's a very presumptuous thing to say and is always, 100% of the time, an attempt at obfuscation) but rather that we can draw distinctions between different types of Islam and different social contexts when we analyse terror, particularly terror in the West. (Remember that the world's most prolific terror group is the Wahabbi organization Boko Haram, which barely if at all operates outside of West Africa.)
 
Long story short, the countries and social groups that account for more of the world's Muslims than others - that is, Indonesia and India - are relatively blameless in western terror. We associate Islam and Islamic terror in our minds primarily with Arabs and there's a good reason for that - the social conditions in the Arab world lend themselves uniquely to anti-western terror. There are a number of reasons for that - for me these are the most pressing three:
 
1) Wahhabism is allowed to spread virulently through the Muslim world because nobody will stand up to the Saudis, because they have money and oil and political connections. Wahhabism is an inherently terroristic ideology. From 9/11 to the present day, the main (not only) driving force of anti-Western terror is really Wahhabism.
2) In rural and slum Arabia in particular, incest is rampant, and so is polygamy, meaning that there are genetic bottlenecks lending themselves to erratic behavior, and often frustration caused by a lack of women for a huge and burgeoning population of idle young men.
3) A culture of self-inflicted accommodation to Islam in the West means we don't protect ourselves against clear and obvious threats that would be clearly identified in their own social contexts. A good example is Lebanon, where despite massive sectarian tensions, terror is rather rare, because they know the warning signs and (more importantly) are willing to act against them.
 
Basically if you stop Wahhabism in the West you stop a lot of trouble, but we won't because we're addicted to Saudi money. Similarly if you stop importing by the millions people who don't especially like you, you'll have less terror.


You are starting to get on the right tracks, but you are making these Muesli ****ers sound a bit like VikingTon.
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#18 capitanus

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:27 PM

(That said, Wahhibism has barely a toehold in Pakistan.)


Which brings us back to the original point. This is about Pakistan, not whether Micropenis1874 believes in the Tooth Fairy, or whether all the young Saudi males face the dilemma between being a virgin, shagging a camel or shagging a lassie with more facial hair than themselves.

But your contribution is welcome nonetheless. :)
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#19 TRVMP

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:48 PM

Pakistan is, in scientific terms, all ****ed up. I don't blame any non-Sunni for trying to get out.

Now before Gavin goes, I'd like to ask him one more question.


Do you like Abba?


#20 capitanus

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 08:02 PM

Pakistan is, in scientific terms, all ****ed up. I don't blame any non-Sunni for trying to get out.


Why not emigrate their usual way then? Get on a big metal plane to Heathrow and marry someone from Bradford's ugly daughter for the dowry?

I recall at the start of this great 'humanitarian crisis' as it was being reported at the time, watching Newsnight I saw an article about two disheveled looking Asian men who walked for hundreds of miles, hadn't eaten for days, tired etc. I genuinely felt sorry for them. When the interviewer asked where they came from, they replied 'Backy Stan' I felt my sympathy drain instantly and saying 'get those ****s tae ****' in the space of seconds.

My point is, Pakistan isn't Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan or even Palestine. Why are they seeking asylum from the place, and why are the UK taxpayers stll bankrolling them?
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#21 TaunTon

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 08:49 PM

My point is, Pakistan isn't Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan or even Palestine. Why are they seeking asylum from the place, and why are the UK taxpayers stll bankrolling them?

 

Pakistan has been at war for the last 15 years with numerous terrorist groups A lot of them dating back to the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The country is a virtual basket case with the local intelligence service working hand in glove with various terrorist groups while pretending to fight them. Nobody in their right mind would want to go near the place. Thousands of Pakistanis have been killed and sectarian attacks are all too common.

 

We send aid in the mistaken belief that it buys influence. Like India I have no idea what possesses us to continue sending funds to countries that prioritise nuclear weapons over their peoples well being.



#22 Cet Homme Charmant

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 09:01 PM

 Like India I have no idea what possesses us to continue sending funds to countries that prioritise nuclear weapons over their peoples well being.

Like the UK then.



#23 TaunTon

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 09:32 PM

Like the UK then.

 

Only in a grossly exaggerated sense.



#24 Cet Homme Charmant

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 09:42 PM

Only in a grossly exaggerated sense.

Not really while there's foodbanks and austerity.



#25 TaunTon

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 10:03 PM

Comparing the UK's prioritising of health, social and educational spend with Pakistans is a leap too far for any rational person.