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Improving Football In Scotland - Targeting Demographics


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#1 Clydeview

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:53 PM

Having watched both youth football and rugby in recent years, it's very easy to see that the better athletes, in terms of height/speed/strength, are on the rugby pitch. Many of the teams I've seen at u14 level rugby have been filled with rapid 6 footers, something you just don't see at football.

 

This ties in with rugby being more of a 'middle-class' game. Many studies (and actual figures, British Olympic squads for example) show that a hugely disproportionate number of top UK athletes come from middle-class backgrounds. Given this fact, surely Scottish football should be targeting middle-class kids if they want to improve the game at the top level?

 

Taking football away from the 'working-class' to improve standards. Controversial? Would it work?


Edited by Clydeview, 29 December 2017 - 02:56 PM.

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#2 TRVMP

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

Football improved massively when you stopped coming to games. Keep it up.


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#3 vikingTON

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:57 PM

Having watched both youth football and rugby in recent years

 

That's plenty - stopped reading; awarded red dot anyway. 


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The site is supposed to be a place for the extended 'family' of Morton supporters - having an affinity with people that you don't know, because you share a love of your local football club. It's not supposed to be about point scoring and showing how 'clever' or 'funny' you are, or just being downright rude and offensive to people you don't know, because you can get away with it. Unfortunately, it seems the classic case of people who have little standing/presence in real life, use this forum as a way of making themselves feel as if they are something. It's sad, and I've said that before..

So, having been on Morton forums for about 15 years I guess, I've had enough... well done t*ssers, another Morton supporter driven away. You can all feel happy at how 'clever' you are


#4 irnbru

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 05:39 PM

Having watched both youth football and rugby in recent years, it's very easy to see that the better athletes, in terms of height/speed/strength, are on the rugby pitch. Many of the teams I've seen at u14 level rugby have been filled with rapid 6 footers, something you just don't see at football.

This ties in with rugby being more of a 'middle-class' game. Many studies (and actual figures, British Olympic squads for example) show that a hugely disproportionate number of top UK athletes come from middle-class backgrounds. Given this fact, surely Scottish football should be targeting middle-class kids if they want to improve the game at the top level?

Taking football away from the 'working-class' to improve standards. Controversial? Would it work?


Picking players for height and strength over ability at that age caused some of the issues in the first place.
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#5 Clydeview

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 06:44 PM

Picking players for height and strength over ability at that age caused some of the issues in the first place.

 

Morton pro-youth certainly not going for height and strength from what I've seen. The quickest/strongest young players are always more likely to make it to the first team... Quitongo a perfect example. Mark Russell also made it due to pace. 

 

Going further back, Davie Hopkin wasn't much of a player when he first appeared, but got himself built-up, and basically made a great career from it.

Brian Reid... strength.

Derek Lilley, strength and pace...

Derek McInnes, was going nowhere at Morton until he got himself much fitter/stronger (thanks to Lindberg for setting the example)

 

Mahood - got a move based on ability, didn't have the required athleticism, back up to Scotland.

Tidser -  got a move based on ability, didn't have the required athleticism, back up to Scotland.

 

Basically you have to be a very good athlete to progress.... and football misses out on many of the countries top athletes.


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#6 irnbru

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:00 PM

Morton pro-youth certainly not going for height and strength from what I've seen. The quickest/strongest young players are always more likely to make it to the first team... Quitongo a perfect example. Mark Russell also made it due to pace.

Going further back, Davie Hopkin wasn't much of a player when he first appeared, but got himself built-up, and basically made a great career from it.
Brian Reid... strength.
Derek Lilley, strength and pace...
Derek McInnes, was going nowhere at Morton until he got himself much fitter/stronger (thanks to Lindberg for setting the example)

Mahood - got a move based on ability, didn't have the required athleticism, back up to Scotland.
Tidser - got a move based on ability, didn't have the required athleticism, back up to Scotland.

Basically you have to be a very good athlete to progress.... and football misses out on many of the countries top athletes.


Tell that to Messi and Xavi...

On a more serious point, it's clearly wrong if 14 year olds are being written off on the basis of strength and height when they've got still got growing to do -
ability has to be the main focus. Rugby, where there's little skill involved, might be different.
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#7 HamCam

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:08 PM

Tell that to Messi and Xavi...

On a more serious point, it's clearly wrong if 14 year olds are being written off on the basis of strength and height when they've got still got growing to do -
ability has to be the main focus. Rugby, where there's little skill involved, might be different.

 

Although I am no rugby fan, to say there is little skill involved suggests you know little about the game.

 

As for the suggestion that rugby is getting all the best young athletes, I see little evidence of this in the Edinburgh area and this is arguably one of rugby's 'heartlands'. The reality is the best young athletes are playing multiple sports until they require to specialize. 


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#8 LinwoodTON

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:09 PM

Tell that to Messi and Xavi...

On a more serious point, it's clearly wrong if 14 year olds are being written off on the basis of strength and height when they've got still got growing to do -
ability has to be the main focus. Rugby, where there's little skill involved, might be different.

 

172636.gif


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#9 irnbru

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:28 PM

Although I am no rugby fan, to say there is little skill involved suggests you know little about the game.

As for the suggestion that rugby is getting all the best young athletes, I see little evidence of this in the Edinburgh area and this is arguably one of rugby's 'heartlands'. The reality is the best young athletes are playing multiple sports until they require to specialize.


Well it's a lot less skill and ability than is needed in football...
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#10 HamCam

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:33 PM

Well it's a lot less skill and ability than is needed in football...

 

You are just confirming how little you know about the game.


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#11 TonInDublin

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:38 PM

Having watched both youth football and rugby in recent years, it's very easy to see that the better athletes, in terms of height/speed/strength, are on the rugby pitch. Many of the teams I've seen at u14 level rugby have been filled with rapid 6 footers, something you just don't see at football.

 

This ties in with rugby being more of a 'middle-class' game. Many studies (and actual figures, British Olympic squads for example) show that a hugely disproportionate number of top UK athletes come from middle-class backgrounds. Given this fact, surely Scottish football should be targeting middle-class kids if they want to improve the game at the top level?

 

Taking football away from the 'working-class' to improve standards. Controversial? Would it work?

 

Yeah, and all black men can run faster and jump higher. 

 

Seriously, who left the gate open on the cúnt farm ?  


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#12 LinwoodTON

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:51 PM

Yeah, and all black men can run faster and jump higher. 

 

Seriously, who left the gate open on the cúnt farm ?  

 

82385421.jpg


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#13 TonInDublin

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:02 PM

82385421.jpg

 

Not like you to use sweeping generalisations - actually, hold that thought - can someone now close the gate at the aforementioned farm, we have two of them on the loose.


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#14 TRVMP

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:23 PM

Not like you to use sweeping generalisations - actually, hold that thought - can someone now close the gate at the aforementioned farm, we have two of them on the loose.


To say that all black people are going to be fast and agile is wrong. To say that the fastest people will, 9 times out of 10, be black (more specifically of West African origin or descent), is 100% correct. There are numerous biological reasons for this, as with the ones that see people from the East African steppes and highlands dominate long-distance running and if and when the 2-hour marathon mark is ever broken it'll almost certainly be someone of Kenyan or Ethiopian extraction that manages it. Genetics are absolutely key at the top level of athletics. That and training - it is very common to see athletes out on the roads and trails of East Africa from a very young age as it's a ticket to financial security. But you can train as hard as you like, if you don't have the genes you'll never, ever crack the top ten.

Edited by TRVMP, 29 December 2017 - 09:23 PM.

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#15 LinwoodTON

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:29 PM

To say that all black people are going to be fast and agile is wrong. To say that the fastest people will, 9 times out of 10, be black (more specifically of West African origin or descent), is 100% correct. There are numerous biological reasons for this, as with the ones that see people from the East African steppes and highlands dominate long-distance running and if and when the 2-hour marathon mark is ever broken it'll almost certainly be someone of Kenyan or Ethiopian extraction that manages it. Genetics are absolutely key at the top level of athletics. That and training - it is very common to see athletes out on the roads and trails of East Africa from a very young age as it's a ticket to financial security. But you can train as hard as you like, if you don't have the genes you'll never, ever crack the top ten.

 

If you ever get the chance, read about why black people don't make good swimmers. All to do with lack of buoyancy, very interesting indeed.


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#16 TRVMP

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:35 PM

If you ever get the chance, read about why black people don't make good swimmers. All to do with lack of buoyancy, very interesting indeed.


I read about that a few years ago because I was interested in Michael Phelps, who has an unusual arm span, several inches longer than his body length. I was interested in the other factors at play (joint flexibility etc.) and found out about people of African descent having different properties. It's quite fascinating, the role genetics play in sport. As sport continues to become more lucrative I fully expect clubs and indeed countries to start buying up hot genetic properties in infancy. Which is depressing.
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#17 Clydeview

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:15 PM

Well it's a lot less skill and ability than is needed in football...

 

Ha, try tackling a 14 stone guy running at pace... and the umpteen other skills that are required.  Have also seen inter-schools rugby recently, where one team was made up entirely of regular rugby players, against boys that only played at school.... utterly one-sided, all opposition outclassed, due to the skills possessed by the regular players.


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#18 capitanus

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:40 PM

All of the above begs the question, why have Scotland been so s*** at rugby for the past 25 years?
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#19 TaunTon

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 12:10 AM

All of the above begs the question, why have Scotland been so s*** at rugby for the past 25 years?

 

Stop asking relevent questions that confirm Zhivago's status as a complete spunk gargler.


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#20 Clydeview

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 12:27 AM

All of the above begs the question, why have Scotland been so s*** at rugby for the past 25 years?

 

Hmm... it doesn't really. Rugby in general (worldwide) pulls its players from middle class backgrounds, so England/Ireland/Wales/Australia are all selecting from the demographic that's likely to have the best athletes.i.e. no advantage for Scotland. Also have to remember that Scotland are always competing against the elite of world rugby, so while being s*** for the past 25 years, Scotland has probably always been in the top 10 in the world.


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#21 Clydeview

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 01:07 AM

Yeah, and all black men can run faster and jump higher. 

 

Seriously, who left the gate open on the cúnt farm ?  

 

Not all, but in general yes, the best athletes in the world are black. Great genetics for strength and speed... think most folk know that.

 

Around 50% of British Olympic gold medals over the last few games have been won by people that went to private schools, yet only 7% of the country actually go to private schools. 

 

It's not stereotyping, it's factual. The middle classes are more likely to succeed at sport... more financial backing, more opportunities, better diets and lifestyle - in general healthier people. Surely not going to dispute that?? 

 

Interesting then that football is a 'working class' sport, meaning that the game is largely missing out on the best source of elite athletes. It's actually a known issue, I'm not really raising anything new, discussed it a couple of years ago with a guy I know that has spent his career working in health/fitness/training development for Celtic/SFA, and has developed fitness programs that are now followed nationally. He brought it up, so I'll blame the expert if I'm wrong...


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#22 Clydeview

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 01:28 AM

Tell that to Messi and Xavi...

On a more serious point, it's clearly wrong if 14 year olds are being written off on the basis of strength and height when they've got still got growing to do -
ability has to be the main focus. Rugby, where there's little skill involved, might be different.

 

These guys are exceptions, the vast majority of top players now are mainly there because they are great athletes. 

 

Every time an English team comes up pre-season to play Morton the same thing stands out, they are much bigger/stronger/faster.

 

Average height of an English Premiership player is just over 6ft. Don't know what it is in Scotland, but I'm sure it's nothing like that...


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#23 LargsTON

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 08:03 AM

You are just confirming how little you know about the game.


I'd have to agree with IrnBru. If you're big, thick and fast you'll be a rugby superstar.
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#24 LargsTON

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 08:04 AM

If you ever get the chance, read about why black people don't make good swimmers. All to do with lack of buoyancy, very interesting indeed.


And nowhere to swim.
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#25 Clydeview

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 11:45 AM

Although I am no rugby fan, to say there is little skill involved suggests you know little about the game.

 

As for the suggestion that rugby is getting all the best young athletes, I see little evidence of this in the Edinburgh area and this is arguably one of rugby's 'heartlands'. The reality is the best young athletes are playing multiple sports until they require to specialize. 

 

Rugby obviously not getting all of the best young talent, but getting more than it's fair share, based on what I've seen on the West coast. Also, and I don't particularly agree with it, but kids are specialising from an early age.

 

Many rugby clubs, including Greenock Wanderers, now have rugby Academies where, from the age of 11, selected players train three times a week, over and above normal club training/matches - that doesn't leave time for any other sport. Greenock Wanderers have definitely got quite a few of the areas best young athletes right now, at least a couple of whom chose rugby over Morton youth teams.


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